It's good to hear you got it figured out. It sounds like maybe you did run out of pellets. It's hard to tell without seeing it. The other possibility is that there were ashes built up back in the back corner of the burner. If the burner is off when you clean it, you should be sure to get all the way back into the back corner as that is where the igniter is. If ashes get built up in that back/bottom corner, they can cover the hole where the hot air from the igniter is supposed to come out to ignite the pellets. But, because you say it has been working since you "re-primed" the auger by running it manually, it sounds more likely to me that the pellet level was too low to allow consistent feeding.
If you run out of pellets again, rather than run it for 6 minutes, you should go to the manual control screen where you can run it by clicking the start button. This way, you can stop it when you hear a good feed of pellets entering the burner. By running it for 6 minutes, you could over feed it which can lead to a smokey start up.
It sounds like you have it all figured out though. Thanks for posting!
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Re: Ignition Faults
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Re: Where can all the online Kedels be seen?
To see Kedel's in the United States go here: http://stokercloud.dk/?pos=us
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Some new articles about pellet fuel...
I have just created a new site about pellet fuel coming from Eastern Europe. You can read there some interesting articles. Inviting you to http://pellet.atranspl.org
Regards
Andrzej Szadkowski
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Delivery system water content
Curious if there are any issues related to thermal mass in delivery systems. Example, we wish to retro-fit a Kedel into a system that was once a steam system, we wish to convert the single pipe radiators by leaving the network of 2" pipes used in the one pipe system then add a new, second pipe to each radiator. will the high water content of all the radiators and the larger size pipes factor into any problems with how the firing rate modulated on the burner. I realize the Kedel uses the thermostatic by-pass to achieve & maintain temperatures above condensation point, but will the large volume of cool return water cause overly frequent cycling of this thermostatic valve? Should I be thinking fancy thoughts of modulating mixing valves? I posted this for discussion because I have 2-3 customers interested in a Kedel installation that are going to be converted from steam.
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Re: Delivery system water content
That is a great consideration. From what we have found, the Kedel quite likes high mass systems for a few reasons. First, as you mention, the shunt valve will prevent the boiler from being cold shocked which can create condensation inside the HX. Secondly, the controller is turning the main circ pump on and off to maintain the boiler within a 10 degree window. Both of these things will eliminate the concern of bringing too much cold water back to the boiler.
As for the experience of the home owner, naturally, there will be a significantly longer warm up period if the entire system is cold. Generally, with high mass systems, we recommend less of a setback and more of a consistent temperature in the space unless programmable or smart thermostats are installed which can anticipate the long ramp up time and start the heating process earlier, ensuring the space is at the desired temperature at the desired time. Because of the high mass, the system takes a long time to warm up and subsequently takes a long time to cool down. Because of this, we have seen some of the best performance in terms of home comfort and a low number of ignitions.
If there are multiple high mass zones, we recommend a primary/secondary piping configuration.
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Re: Delivery system water content
Ryan,
Good points and yes, these installation would have multiple zones, either with thermostatic radiator valves on individual room radiators or at least 3-4 zones. I agree with primary/secondary piping, we could potentially get the Kedel in the right "power band" of flow rate/ delta T running through it so it would run long cycles at an optimal firing rate. I'd still be interested in introduction of a delta T pump (variable speed) on the primary side circ or a modulating mixing valve to optimize the boiler output. We can discuss this further as I now feel the high mass will perform well using minimal set back like in a high mass system.
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Re: Delivery system water content
Multiple zones would be fine, but in an ideal world, TRVs would be on each radiator and the boiler would simply run 24/7 (less the downtime required for ash blowout) modulating based on how much flow the sum of all radiators are allowing. I'd love to see one of these go in where there is no thermostat but simply a "Heat On/Off" switch where there are TRVs on every radiator and the system is balanced so that the boiler would modulate between 15% power and 100% power from October to April.
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Re: Delivery system water content
that is what I'd like too, the modulation burner gets us closer to this homeostasis than an oil burner.
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Re: Delivery system water content
Ryan, does a buffer tank that would store a larger amount of hot water fit in your discussion? I'm thinking that the Kedel could run at a lower output to maintain the tank temp and the tank could provide a larger amount of hot water when needed, thus satisfying the house needs and keeping the Kedel from cycling on/off.
Trout
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Learning To Use New Kedel
Hi Ryan,
I realize it's the weekend but ...
I've had my new Kedel boiler (baseboard radiators and hot water) for about 1 and 1/2 weeks now and for me it's been a steep learning curve and adjustment since it operates so differently than the old oil burner. Just beginning to figure out what all the data plots mean. After the first week we got a Nest Thermostat and that has improved things quite a lot, but also raises new questions ;)
I've been trying to read up on pellet boilers and the posts in this forum but I still have many questions about how to properly use and optimize the boiler, etc. But I'm going to try and keep my posts to one question at a time.
This morning I'm comparing your boiler to my own via the stocker.dk web site, since we are neighbors.
I'm looking at the power and output plots and I see quite different profiles.
Both come on and go from 0 to 25 or 30. Then stay there for an hour so then start to climb. This is when I assume heat starts to come up. Both climb to 75 or 77, but my power then goes back down to 56 then up to 66 then down again, etc. Your power maintains a level 75.
Perhaps this is nothing. The boiler temp. in my case stays around the target level and heat continues to be produced.
Thanks.
Eric
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Re: Learning To Use New Kedel
Hello Eric,
Each system is going to run pretty differently due to the differences in the distribution systems. I have cast iron radiators throughout the house on one zone, so when there is a call for heat, it takes quite a long time for the system to get up to temperature. You can see that at 8am this morning, the boiler temperature line smoothed out on my boiler. This is because the distribution finally got up to temperature and the pump started running continuously. At that point, the boiler temperature climbed above 170 (170 is the boiler target temperature) so the power begins modulating down to try to maintain 170 degrees. If the temperature climbs above 170, the boiler power will modulate down. If the temperature drops below 170, the power will modulate up. At your place, the distribution was all hot by about 6:15am. At that point, the pump stays on and the boiler power modulates up or down, trying to keep the boiler temperature right at 170 degrees.
When it's colder out, my boiler also modulates down around 50% power once the system is up to temperature.
Do you have the latest copy of the manual? In the manual, it explains the operating logic, which may be helpful for you to read.
Thanks for using the forum and please, feel free to post more questions.
Ryan
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Re: Learning To Use New Kedel
Thanks for the prompt reply Ryan.
I do have the manual and will start reviewing it
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Cannot access boiler charts from Internet
When I log into my boiler on the Internet I can access all the individual pages including the consumption charts. However I cannot expand the boiler charts. The charts work fine on the boiler user interface touch screen. I can see a small chart in upper right corner of the main page but I cannot expand it at all or adjust what is being shown in any way. Do I need to adjust the Internet settings in some way?
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data availability
Hi,
I would like to be able to see data on the temperature of our DHW and boiler over a long period of time, more than just the most recent 48 hrs. Is it possible to do this with the current software and if so how? As a short term option (hopefully), is it possible to download that temperature data to periodically compare how the system is functioning over time? Ideally, I think it would be great for users to be able to select a time frame and view system data for any selected period. If that much data storage would cause trouble, you could just store data from the most recent 6 months - 1 year for each system and give users the option to download data if they want to keep older data themselves.
Thanks much,
Harriet
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Re: Cannot access boiler charts from Internet
To make sure I understand, when you see your boiler home page, you can see the little thumbnail of the boiler graph, but when you click on it, nothing happens, right?
If that is the case, I have to ask what kind of machine you are trying to view it on. iPhone or iPad? If it is one of those two devices, I have also had trouble clicking on the graph to get it to go to that screen. On my PC, I can click on the graph and it goes directly to the graph screen. When I try to do it on my iPhone, I can usually get it to go by clicking on it multiple times in quick succession. Eventually it will open the graphs screen.
Let me know if you are on a PC with a typical mouse and still have trouble.
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Re: data availability
Hello Harriet,
It is a great suggestion for those of us who want to dive a little deeper into the operation of the boiler. Unfortunately, as of now we can only display 48 hours worth of data. We are however, constantly working on improving the functionality and usability of the web interface. I will look into the possibility of downloading more history if so desired.
Thanks for your input,
Ryan
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Disable Autocalculaton
What does the autocalculation on the external auger controller do?
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Re: Cannot access boiler charts from Internet
I thought I already replied. But to not see it here, so I guess it did not go through . It was an iPad that was having trouble getting to the charts. I tried again and it is working fine from all my devices. Thanks for the help.
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DHW control settings and priority
No heat happening so have been watching the DHW cycle a bit. I had the boiler max power set st 100%. I noticed that during a typical cycle the boiler power would climb to about 65% and the boiler temp wou reach 195+ degrees for a significant period before the power started to decrease, and would stay above 190 for remainder of DHW call. Boiler temp would then drop 10-20 degrees after the boiler shut down while the circ pump continues running (good improvement getting the pump to keep running. I interpreted these operating conditions to mean that the boiler power setting is higher than necessary. I decided to reduce the max boiler power setting. Started at 50% and have continue down to 44%. The boiler temp is still going above 190 but for less time. I assume this means that my DHW tank heat exchanger cannot keep up with the boiler output (my water tank is 80 gallon). I was planning to continue reducing the max power setting to see if I can get to point where boiler temps do not spike so high , but also where the water tank reheats in a reasonable amount of time.
What should my DHW priority controls strategy be? Am I correct to reduce the boiler power? I noticed in the manual that during DHW priority the boiler temp target is 36 degrees above the SdHW set point - my DHW is presently set at 139 which results in boiler target of 175. Am I understanding this correct? If so I guess this partly explains the higher boiler temps (my normal boiler target is170 or 173 - too many numbers, I forget ). I would appreciate any guidance you can offer on this topic. Thank you.
Ps. Love the fact that I can see all this stuff - I cannot believe it has taken this long to provide this level of controls and monitoring on something as important as heating our homes and water.
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Re: DHW control settings and priority
You are dead on! Reducing the max output of the boiler will circumvent the temperature spikes. What is happening is that there is a bit of lag when the boiler temperature starts climbing above the setpoint like that because of the "memory" that it had been below setpoint for a while. See the explanation of the "I" value of the PID settings in the manual.
Glad to know you are enjoying it! It is quite invaluable for your service provider to see what is going on as well.
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